Best of all times

[shork]

Hi guys, lets talk about best players of all times. I wanna edit this list on shc-toplistk.tk. All experience players,old players it would be nice if u will give some info about yours games in old times. Who for u was best in No f and No fffs.

[[>D-F<]~T-Bag~]

Not by rules, but overall skill top 10 of players I played many games with, can't comment on some oldies from HL list:
HL, Peabody, Bartholo, Dingo, Masosz, Vytas, Lietuvis, strong-nofear, Maly(despite cheat habits) and this new guy lancelot.

Players I don't agree to be on HL list: arma and blacky - sry but they were not that good
Players I don't agree on your no fire list: feanor, erec, defs, vlad

[Dr.Peabody]

Making an accurate list is difficult because it spans so many years, from 2002 - 2020, and many of the best players and legends that were gods of the game are now forgotten.

I was active from 2004 - 2012, and during those 8 years, all the top experts would agree that HL was the best player in nof or noffs. But I don't really know any of the players from **2002 - 2004** or **2013 - 2020**. I do know that whenever HL/Bar were around, all the *other* experts could only fight each other for 2nd place, and everybody knew it too. Those *other* experts were:  In GameSpy: FD, Warlord, Standard, me, strong-nofear, Dracula, Vytass, Meelman, Arma, Masosz.  In GameRanger: Dingo, Tbag, Masosz, Blacky, Lider, Geralt.  Most of these guys were at a similar skill level and could usually beat each other.

[[>D-F<]~Dingo~]

Well, SHC has been going for so long now, it makes sense to split it up and separate 2002-2009 from 2010-present or so. I agree HL can be #1 from both eras. People that I take issue putting on the best of all time are blacky, and masosz to an extent.

Blacky 100% used TM sometimes. If you had to use cheats to get an edge, you don't deserve to be in the top player conversation in my opinion. Tbag and I could have benefited from using TM or other programs as well, but we went our entire SHC careers without cheating, even for fun. Worst cheat I ever did in a game was use woodcutters to block armies, but I  only ever did that with friends.

As for Masosz, people said he used TM, but I never saw any proof of it, or caught it myself. My issue with him is mainly that he hardly ever played with top experts that weren't in his clan. We had some significant active playing overlap time, but I think we only ever 1v1'd twice, and we were 1-1 (I had the latter win). If you want to be on top, you have to be willing to defend your position on top.

Tbag - is obviously one of the best of all times, and he or Civo were undoubtedly the best croatian players in history.

Lietuvis was a lower level top expert imo. He was top 10 (but somewhere between 5-10) at his peak, imo.

Lider was very good in the early GR days. Me and tbag consistently beat him, so he was definitely lower than us, but he was one of the most well rounded top experts. He could play high res, low res, medium res, no fire only, or no f/fs, or whatever rules you wanted.

Geralt - at his best he was very good, but his gameplay was suspicious to me because he went from noob to top expert, then to noob again. Seemed like someone was probably playing on his acc for a few months.

Maly - became a very good player, but he was polish and xcon, so 99% chance he was using TM or some programs, and was just smart enough to be less obvious about it.

Civo - had a deep understanding of the game, and could win games in very nonconventional ways. He revived the use of bad things, when virtually nobody was using "bad things" in serious games. Some older players may say he wasn't the first to use bad things as a legitimate strategy, but he was 100% the first person to do it in GR, and introduce it to the GR generation of players. He re-invented it. But even aside from that, he was excellent at managing troops, his eco, and he had very good judgment. I used to learn so much watching him 1v1 with tbag.

[MAX POWER]

It's good that being older, i.e. more mature people now realize and present their opinions as negotiable. Or also, that people agree there should be a split between GSA/GR. Then we don't scream to everyone who is the best and who is not.
Same goes for me, I don't know much.

As an (LT-U) representative I could just say that Lietuvis was a very good player, I was never even close to his level but he was mostly playing 2x2 that's what we enjoyed, to have fun, not playing ladders to the top. So i would say that Lietuvis could be around top 3 when we played, 2010-2011, and not many players can judge what was he like earlier, back in GSA. And I knew that he wasn't even the top, Vytass was, whom I never met.

What Dingo writes here, it's quite biased, like after reading it I clearly see a clan tag D-F :D

Even if people say a lot of shit about X-CON, I remember it as the most dominant clan in the long run. Some clans could come to the top for a little while, but those guys always had active people who played very well. I remember Poland as a gamers country.
D-F once were at the top when XCON didn't have Geralt at a good level, and Masosz was always kinda independant guy who hardly did any clan wars.
and then when HL returned he kinda made DHK great again.

Some players who were very good (maybe you could beat them, but im not certain if you could always do that):

XCON Ares - noone mentions him, but for a guy who does 180+ kg benchpress he had good skills.
[PAK] Lancelot, later {F.U} - really good, he was always one step ahead of erec who also did fine in NO F.
XCON Masosz - probably the best player i remember.
((W@W))Savo - Similar to Lancelot, good player.
XCON Geralt
XCON Maly - one of the best in whole GR era.

in D-F times Lietuvis and I never played against tbag and dingo, their best team, it was like a dream which never came true. i remember we played few times against Tbag who had Tony or some other guys as teammates and they never won i think. But of course they did win against different combinations of (LT-U) players.

What else - If one of teammates is a shitty one, i dont see how that player could make a great 2x2 team, therefore, what is this guy doing in top 2x2 list? {{DHK}}LuIs7 - he was trash. KOD<-Scorpion? come on.

Blacky? Like everyone said, he was just a normal player, who was raised by HL due to DHK tag. which actually makes me wonder even more about the whole list by HL. Like as if he controls the media (aka forum), he can change the reality? He cannot. The problem is that not a single very skilled player was here during these 20 years so we won't have THE top list, we will have many of them.

And also, I see older generation players having their heads halfway up their butthole from all what I read last weeks. We wish that everyone who plays less rules these days are worthless players but some of them do well.

[shork]

Ok, lets my talk about some player who I know from 2012

[X-CON] Maly - the most dominant guy in no fire from 2011, he learned much players and they became top experts. He is one of this guy who know all rules and when he is host in game u never play the same rules. He isnt very fast, but he winning with others with experience. Now he is to lazy and drinking all the time to play serious 1x1 games, only 2v2. Maybe when he go on rehab he can get hes speed back and start play 1v1.

Venik(KoRT Galahad)- One of the best in no ffs. From my whole carier I never saw better player in no ffs than him. Maybe peoples don't know who is he cause he is don't play with new generation players (bragger players), but if u try challange him probably u will die after pt. He is very fast player, always fight for field, know all rules not only 3k 10 pt, 3k 5 pt. Also good in no fire, just not much experience in this rules. Good money maker and good sins control.

Zeiker(KoRT Lancelot) - The master of economy and records. You can't make better eco than him. Also very fast player, always fight for field. Also he don't play with new generation players like I said before. Zeiker play all rules(u can't surprise him), u can't make more money than him. I really want see him in action again in 1v1 games.

FuRY Viktor - Back to 2014-2015 when he was active we always had a good matches in no fire. He always was lazy player, never made moat. Good pop maker in game. When I start play with him in 2014 I start using my pop better. Him skills in no fire was excellent, but he went inactive. Now he back, but he isnt this same Viktor who was before, lost speed, in some situation don't know what to do.

[MAX POWER]

Glad to see 2/4 guys to be LT. they were in LT-U for some time but they personalities are really weird.

[[>D-F<]~Dingo~]

Well Unframed, I talked up some of the D-F players, it's true, but I didn't put people in order. I don't think there's any question that Tbag, myself, and Civo were among the best from 2009-2012/13ish. Most GR players' lists also put us up there as well. I usually get put top 5.

Don't get me wrong, tbag and I liked and respected Lietuvus. I think he was very good and well rounded. I can't speak of min2kas or vytas, because I was very new when I played with them. I recall winning most games 1v1 and 2v2 against lietuvis with tbag as my partner, personally, but it's been a long time.


Talking about clans, and Maly and Ares:

As for X-CON, we were better than them for a time, and they were better than us for a time, and then us again, but overall they were definitely the most consistent clan in GR for the past 10 years. They were tough to compete with because they always had the new flow of Polish players. They had a good advantage because there are so many polish SHC players, and having the common nationality helped keep people loyal to X-CON it seemed. Ares has done a great job of keeping X-CON active and going. For me he wasn't one of the greatest of all time in terms of play style, but he definitely contributed to SHC and the community.

D-F was originally a Croatian clan, but it went on to have people from many different countries. The type of people that were attracted to our clan tended to be people that liked to talk shit and troll, e.g. Erec, Vlad, Rivaz, and some others that I'm forgetting. But those types of people would come to our clan humble and modest, receive our training, but then get egos and go off on their own. We trained many players that went on to become great players, but they usually left D-F.  We trained those I mentioned above, defs, Szeky, Lancelot, and many others that I'm forgetting.

Maly I assume did a good job of also training the next gen of players. But his falling off, as Shork described, is normal for most top experts imo. It gets boring always playing super serious, and when you run out of competition or opponents that you care to beat, you start fucking around and playing less serious. That's what happened with us DF guys.

Moving on, I think Defs, erec, Lancelot (Pakistan one), Vlad, rivaz/savoz/aragorn, Kort Lancelot and Galahad, are all notable best of recent times (relative to their active periods)

[{{DHK}}HolyLord]

Just to get this out of the way, I agree that I'm #1 of all times.  lol


Now to discuss the rest of the list.  Long post because this is my favorite topic, and I have 17 years of detail on it (unfortunately):

Peabody and Unframed bring up some interesting points, which is that the timeline for "all times" must mean 2002 - 2020, a very long period, which makes it difficult.  However, I think for an "all times" list to be accurate, it must truly consider all players from all time periods.  One problem of this, though, is that there are not many players left that remember the older time period, so the natural tendency is for the newer players to only remember other new players, and people forget some of the older gods of the game. I think I might be the only one left from 2003 that's still on this forum, so unfortunately there aren't many sources to verify what I say (maybe Peabody and T-Bag remember a little bit, but they are both newer players than me), but I think I'm the only one old enough that can give a good overview of both GSA and GR players, and I've played with almost every top expert from 2003 - 2012.

Here's what I think.  For this exercise, I will not include players that were only top for a short time (a few months or less), like =G$F=XXoDDuSS,  X2X Wrath, Killa, WarriorWithin, FrozenSlayer, and Satdive.  I still think they belong on the list, but I know nobody except me remembers them or gives a shit, so, that frees up 6 spaces from the current list.  I added 3 players that I am confident belong on the list: Maly, T-Bag, and Geralt.  I used a rating system of Speed, Judgement, and Versatility.   By "Judgement", I am referring to the players' ability to understand their current situation and make quick and accurate good decisions that prove their knowledge and perception of the game.  By "Versatility", I am referring to a player's ability to play anything and everything, and adapt immediately to new situations.  Speed means speed, of course.  The scale of 0-100 is based on the average for 'known players', not just any and every random noob.  So, a 50 is the average known player / clan player.  This means a 90+ is a very, very strong score.  100 does not mean "perfect player", I just set the #1 player at 100 as a benchmark to measure all other players with.  Remember, this is just based on my experiences with these players, and just me trying to estimate and compare across 18 years of experts.


For all / any rules, maps, settings:




This leaves 3 spots.  I don't know who to add to those 3 spots, but a few players come to mind:

Lietuvis?  Legenda Artorius?  WL Mystical?  M-T Keks? (he was good at all rules, even though people only remember him for nffs)  X-CON Lider?  WL Tiger?   X-CON shork?   These players are all amazing and deserve recognition, especially Lider.  I have never played with Mystical, Tiger, or shork, but their skill is obvious on their videos, and I think they are definitely 90+ level players, which means they might belong on this list too, but to confirm that they are better than players like Lietuvis, Lider, Artorius is something that needs attention.  Difficult to say for sure.  Maly or Ares can probably say whether Lider or shork was better, and that may be a good way to tell the relative strength.  My opinion from playing with Lider long ago, and seeing some youtube videos of shork & Mystical, is that shork + Mystical are both faster than Lider, but Lider was a more well-rounded player with some very smart and accurate gameplay.



I see a few other interesting points mentioned by others here, which I think I can agree with:

Blacky overrated - maybe.  I agree he had some poor performances later in his career, and it seemed he stop giving a shit, but I think he was extremely fast and had better army control and tactical management than almost all other players in GR.  I think that specific skillset he carried over from his Stronghold 1 days, and it's a skillset that I noticed many top SH1 players had in SHC, but they stuggled with other areas of SHC. Maybe I'm wrong that he was top 20 of all time, but I would say its not such a crazy idea that some of you think it is.  I can settle with him being top 30 of all time.

Masosz used tm, yes, but he was one of the best players I ever knew, and he even defeated me a 3 times in 1v1 (although all 3 was on the same day when I first came to GR after being inactive, but those were still some of my only 1v1 losses in history, which I ).  After I had some time to be active again I defeated him many times more, including 1v2, but I still remember his gameplay being extremely fast and accurate in any maps, rules, settings.

Maly - Maly wasn't 'most dominant guy in no fire from 2011'.  He didn't become dominant until after 2012 or so.  I remember still being around GR in 2012 and Maly was still a bit new.  But he definitely became extremely good after 2012.  I have seen some of his youtube videos from later years and I agree he should be part of the best of all times list.

Arma - I think he was slower than some of the other players on this list, but he was far more versatile and had very solid judgement / feel and 'flow' with the game.  Tbag and Lider remind me a bit of Arma - they were not the fastest players, but very well rounded, very smart, and long-term veterans.  If you look at the scores on the list, players like Geralt and Blacky are mostly their because of their speed - they were faster than many other players above them on the list, but I am 100% sure that the players above them that were slower were still better.  I've seen Arma defeat Blacky, Masosz, Geralt, and Lider, and I think he fits somewhere into that class of player - those old polish gods  :P



Other commentary:

((X2X))FireDragon & =G$F=Standard - these are the most legendary players in history to me.

=]K@W[=Warlord - I don't think he ever lost 1v1 to someone except me, lol.  He was one of the most versatile players in history, and had an ability to play everything at the highest level.  I think he's one of the most underated legends in SHC, because he didn't talk much or get involved in bullshit.  He was also one of the nicest guys, and friend to all noobs everywhere, lol

((X2X))Meelman - this guy gave me the hardest 1v1s ever (except Bartholo).  many people considered him #1 in 2005.  Meelman, if you ever read this, fuck you.

[X-Con] str0ng~nofear~ - strong camper.  super good control of the map.

Unfortunately, not many people rememeber these players now, but I played with them often when I was at my best, and I am 100% sure they belong at the top of the best of all times list, and could defeat the other players on the list in any settings.



Regarding the nffs list on your site right now, I agree with many of the players, but I think the positions are wrong.  To give some of my personal experience, I defeated both Salah Adin and Keks (a few times actually) in noffs in 2010-2011, and never lost a game to them or anyone else on the nffs list.  I also remember defeating MAPK m5 and his partner in a 2v1 in 2011.  It doesn't feel like they should be in their current positions on the list.  Keks was definitely top, and could play many other rules too, but it seems to me like Salah Adin always only played 1 game style.  I would propose the following, to start:

For Noffs only:
HL  (this fucking guy always thinks he #1, right?)
Keks
Artorius
Tiger?  (never played him but seems good in his videos)
Misterio?  (never played him but seems good in his videos)
Mystical?  (never played him but seems good in his videos)
K@W Warlord  (people forget this guy was one of the gods of noffs)
Salah Adin   (solid but I think he lacked flexibility to deal with new situations & gamestyles)
Fahad   (I remember him being very good, but I know he lost many games too)
Dimonich   (only know him from his videos)
Dr. Peabody   (could play nffs in many different ways at a top level)


I don't know anything about other players on the nffs list, like Defs, Skelet, Jinzo.   I knew Lusenrad, MK Wolf, Kort Zest, and Feanor, and I played with all of them, and they never seemed very good to me, but maybe I'm wrong??

I specifically would like to hear from T-bag/Dingo, Ares, and Peabody, on this, as they saw both the players from 2009 - 2012 and the players after that as well.

[The Notorious One]

Useless topic,there is no something like the best of all times.Its similar like in football players,who was best?Maradona,Messi,Pele,Ronaldo or Gullit....

If the game were played for only 5 years (after tottaly stopped) and during that time someone would win all games then it would be the best in history.You can only tell who was best some period of time lol

[Dr.Peabody]

Of course there is a best of all times, objectively speaking.  I played often for many years, and I can say with certainty that there were some players that were better than almost all other players, regardless of what time period they played in.  It's not difficult to tell the difference in skill level of different players if you've played with them, and most of us have played with or against each other in the past.

[DH]

HL is the best in SHC, no doubt, but he needs more money. Investing attention in things which don't bring you money is worthless(waste of time). This game is played with 20-30 real players, the rest are all akas which smell like rotten potatoes. Ofc you always have idiots who think that making akas will be some dick for the community. Not only that akas sink to the past but the legends of this game.

Stronghold Crusader is really destructive video game where the main point is only to kill. Looks like people who make video games are the most happy persons because they earn money on fools who put so much attention in this. Long live SHC fools! Until they play this game developers will stuff ther stomachs.

[{{DHK}}HolyLord]

@The Notorious One - Maybe you're right.   I just enjoy talking about it.  

@DH - You're definitely right that all of us SHC people are suckers in the end.  {{DHK}}Hampton used to tell me, back in 2005, that "the game always wins, not the players", and FD told me 8 years later: "you and I are sick. we have a sickness... that we are still here after all this time."  Fortunately, I actually have quite a bit of money, but no matter how much more money I have, it seems time always wins.  But here is where I disagree with you - you said investing attention in things which don't bring you money is a waste of time.  Money is only a tool for happiness.  "Time you enjoy wasting is not wasted time."  That's why I still read these forums and talk with you all.

[DH]

maybe, but there are many other things better in which you can put attention  and enjoy (walking in nature with dog, swimming at pools, watching good tennis etc, talking and drinking in restaurant). strategy video games are full of tension, excitement, emotion and it can negatively effect on your brain. Since you are in america you should read this:

'The Columbine High School massacre was a school shooting and attempted bombing that occurred on April 20, 1999, at Columbine High School in Columbine, Colorado, United States.[n 2] The perpetrators, twelfth grade (senior) students Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold, murdered 12 students and one teacher. Ten students were killed in the school library, where the pair subsequently committed suicide. 21 additional people were injured with gunshots and gunfire was also exchanged with the police. Another three people were injured trying to escape the school. At the time, it was the deadliest school shooting in United States history.[n 3] The crime has inspired several copycats (see Columbine effect) and "Columbine" has become a byword for mass shootings. I COPIED FROM INTERNET.

More....

The police were slow to enter the school and were heavily criticized for not intervening during the shooting. The incident resulted in the introduction of the Immediate Action Rapid Deployment tactic, which is used in active shooter situations. Columbine also resulted in an increased emphasis on school security with zero tolerance policies. Debates were sparked over gun control laws and gun culture, high school cliques, subcultures, and bullying. Also discussed were the moral panic over goths, social outcasts, the use of pharmaceutical antidepressants by teenagers, teenage Internet use and violence in video games and movies

[[>D-F<]~T-Bag~]

  ...

[MAX POWER]

DH did remain a crazy person :) DH, please let people speak about the things they want to speak. In a world where most countries are free, there is a liberty to do things that don't harm others. Things like... discuss top shc players without being judged.

You could create a separate topic though. About the harms of SHC which is quite interesting also.

[DH]

[DH]

You can talk anything you want, i said HL the best and gave my opinion on best players but i am also talking about negative side of video gaming. Today i was listening serbian national television and do you know what i heard: Kids get epi attack, they suffer from sick sensations and convulsions because they are looking at monitor whole day and night. I remember T-Bag told me long time ago: SHC video gaming increase my intelligence. Do you know when i will start to believe in that? When the pope converts to islam. Do you know what MOKKA NO FAKKA TOLD ME? We were friends and then became enemies: T-BAG IS WHOLE DAY ON AKAS.  I dont play anymore, doubt i will ever play again, but love this forum and i can spit facts here.

[MAX POWER]

How about you show respect to the title of this thread and create a new one for a different subject?

[shork]

You talking how to games are not good and its not good for healt. But I see u don't play game and u have problem with ur psyhic cause u talking shit like ours grandpas. Everyone have his life and should know what to do. All is in physic. Ppls don't play in video games, but still murderr. Why? Oh wait, cause they have problem with psychic. There are much ppls in world and everyone is diffrent. Someone can play 24/7, somoene can just play 2/3h, someone can't play cause cant distinguish real life than virtual life.