Best of all times

[[>D-F<]~Dingo~]

[X-CON] shork wrote

You talking how to games are not good and its not good for healt. But I see u don't play game and u have problem with ur psyhic cause u talking shit like ours grandpas.

Made me legit LOL

[[>D-F<]~Dingo~]

Sorry in advance for the long post.

Nice thoughtful analysis. A lot of this will be directed to you, HL. Some points:

First, who besides you has ever considered Bart to be #1? I think you're the only person who thinks that. Maybe you and a couple of your buddies, but beyond that, the community has absolutely not shared your sentiment that he's #1, since I started playing in 2007. Do we have some objective criteria beyond your opinion to support his position? Tournament wins, clan foundation and leadership (as is the case for FD, which I'll talk about), or anything else that you can point to. A general consensus among the community that he was the best active player at any time, at least? I don't think that was ever the case. My experience with Bart has been limited, but unimpressive. No offense Bart. I've mainly seen him quit and do stupid stuff in game, such as intentionally glitch and do wc blocking. We can agree that it's more the exception than the rule to play at the top top tier level for many years. Life happens, and you stop caring to try so hard. You reach a point that you feel like you have nothing left to prove, and the competition bores you. But. You've done a pretty good job of playing at a high level over many years, and you put yourself at #2. Why can't he even maintain even relatively high level of play?

Same question about the criteria Arm@. What criteria besides your opinion can you point to support him being one of the best ever? Do other top experts that have seen him play in both generations consider him one of the greatest ever? Does he have many tournie wins? I never knew that he came to GR, and part of me doubts that he ever did, but I don't know that GR players that played with him were too impressed. As tbag said, I'd scratch him off. Just because he's your friend doesn't mean he qualifies. Unless he was training/playing on the accs of Maly/Geralt?

Same thing for Blacky. You knocked him down a few spots, nice. But what objective criteria do you have for him? Has he ever won a tournie? Do people besides you consider him one of the best of all time? You heard from tbag and myself, that he wasn't. I'll admit, I'm biased against him because I didn't like him. Still,  I think people in the community considered him very good, but I think the consensus amongst top experts'd be that he doesn't qualify to be on a greatest of all time list. Also, I accused him of using TM and you didn't deny it.

That leads to another point. You say Masosz used TM, and I heard many other people say that too. If Blacky and Masosz used TM, how is that not an automatic disqualification? Cheating bars people from consideration in my opinion. If you had to use cheats to reach the top, you never truly reached the top.

On another note, I think your ordering and rating of players accounts for more than just their speed, judgment (btw, it personally bothers me that you spell judgment "judgement," but I can't blame you) and versatility, but I don't think those things tell the whole story.

It's a bit hard to explain what actually makes the difference between an expert and a "top expert" imo. Speed, judgment, and versatility, are obviously very important. But I think, some people also have an extra "it factor." For me, it's partly the ability to be creative, clever, and dominate the game in a way that goes beyond just being quick or having good judgment. It's hard to explain, but I used to play with some players that were considered some of the top players at the time, and I could see that they knew how to play when the game was played the way they were accustomed to, but then they'd be completely thrown off and unable to adjust whenever an unconventional strategy was used against them. I guess that partly speaks to their versatility and judgment, but I think the ability to break from the established/structured mold of how 99% of players play, in addition to the other factors, is probably what separates experts from top experts.

With that, I think Lietuvis was a very clever player, but he wasn't particularly dominant. If i were to rate him (based on not seeing him play for 7-9 years), I'd put him at something like Speed 86/Judgment 92/Versatility 89. I think that averages to 89, but I'm slightly drunk.

Some other thoughts:

FD - from my observations 2007-onward, he generally always refused to 1v1 anyone. But, he founded X2X, which was considered one of the best clans, historically, by the community imo. His tournie wins + his ability to keep X2X together, and of such high status, are indicative of him being a top expert/one of the best imo.

Same thing for Standard - he had more tournie wins than anyone else in GSA, and I think it was by a significant amount.

Warlord - guy made some good maps. Is there a more classic map than K@W the contest?

Tbag - hopefully he stopped reading by now and he never sees this. If that fucker's judgment/versatility was 92/93, then mine was 98/93. My judgment is fucking excellent, and he's one of the biggest noobs in the history of SHC.




--- To add to your list, I think many of the people that you mentioned haven't earned it. Civo clearly did, and im not just sating that. Active player lancelot has earned my respect, but I think he needs to establish himself in the community as the best active player, then he could qualify. You should also play with him. I've played with him, and mainly lost, but I'm rusty and mostly inactive. But he's very similar to you in that he plays very structured/mechanically every game, and doesn't know how to have a fucking relaxed fun game. He plays to win to an annoying degree, and he doesn't know how to be lazy in-game. He's the only person that might be worthy of being a new addition, besides Lietuvis (although I think Lietuvis probably still falls short in the end).

Sorry for the long post.

[DH]

I started playing SHC in 2009, i ejoyed it, in another period of time i started playing more and more and it somehow led me into the problems. If I had problems back then it doesn't mean I'm super mental problem head now. Stronghold Crusader is destructive video game like any other stupid strategic video game. The more you play it the more addict you become its like watching pornography when you don't have a girlfriend (I knew SHC clan called MILF with Maly and Geralt). Yes you are right, some play more, some play a little, but only smart people who know exactly how much to dose playing a video game can play healthy. Those who play 24-7 should visit a psychologist and look for diagnosis. Not only that killing come from mental problems, BUT EVERY EVIL comes from mental problems. Everyone has a life, and everyone has a free will to choose what they like. We are all creators of our fate and what we think about us, other people, life and space we become. You should understand my word as a advice, but your life your choice.














 

[{{DHK}}HolyLord]

Sounds like your list would be my list but without Bar, Masosz, Arma, or Blacky, and maybe add Civo.

It sounds like your approach to evaluating who goes on the list goes a little beyond just pure skill?  I would say we should call a 'best list' purely about the in-game skills.  My approach is meant to be purely skill-based, and not about 'achievements', 'clan leaderships', etc.  And of course, this means it's subjective to what I've personally seen from each of these players - which comes from a combination of 1) 1v1 (or 1v2, lol) games I've played with them, 2) watching games they've played against other top experts, 3) their 1v1 record at their peak, against other top experts at the time. To supplement this, as you probably know, I have a pretty good comprehensive view for almost a solid 10-year period in SHC (2003-2012/13 ish), which affords me the ability to compare some players across timelines.

You bring up a very valid concern about Bartholo, which is that he was basically acting like a clown during his time in GameRanger, and you're correct that he had completely stopped giving a shit or trying to prove anything after around 2007ish - I stopped playing seriously too, but as you noted, I still made sure to play accurately and do what I needed to do to win, regardless of my opponent.  Nonetheless, many of the people (which, now that I think of it, was not many people) who did see Bartholo play seriously do agree he was either #1 or #2 after me.  You're right I can't validate this beyond giving my experience, but I think its valuable to some extent that I (presumably the #1 player, if we decide Bar isn't, and the only player to know his gameplay so well) believe so strongly in his ability.  At the end of the day, I don't blame you or anyone if you choose not to believe me on this one.  I understand and can appreciate the predicament.

About Arma - you may not know he won 3 tournaments in GameSpy Arcade, defeated Meelman, Masosz, and Shazzabog in GSA, and then came to GR and defeated Geralt, Lider, and Blacky.  Regardless, if you look at the scores I put for his S/J/V, he's pretty much only on the list because of his judgement (yes, I said "judgEment", fuck you attorneys) & versatility, kind of like T-Bag.  They weren't as fast as you or Blacky, for example, but I think both of them had a better feel for the game than you (no offense, just giving my honest assessment for discussion purpose).  In the end, I think your speed along with 'solid' (but not perfect) judgement/versatility carried you further.  I don't know if he played under Geralt's account, but I suspect that could be a possibility.  Geralt was a student of Arma, and was faster than Arma but lacked the experience of Arma.  Look, it's whatever I guess.  If I had to pick a hill to die on, it wouldn't be this one, so I can concede if nobody else agrees.

Masosz - I understand where you're coming from about his tm usage.  But, I don't think it disqualifies him if he was still a top player without it, which he was.  Masosz only started using TM in GR era, when he got lazy.  Without it, he was still easily a top top expert.  Because of my approach to this assessment (purely skill based), if his skill level without tm was a 92, then he's logically a 92.  It's like saying - what if Dingo used a trainer in a bunch of games, but was still just as good otherwise?  Wouldn't make me change my mind about you being on the list - I still think you'd be a top player, just making questionable decisions!  lol.  Don't you agree?  Fighting Masosz was hell for most experts - this dude knew how to fight.  I've been a watcher to so many of his 1v1s, but again this is just my personal experience across all the players I've seen.

I agree with your assessment of Lietuvis.

FD - I didn't put him so high on the list because of his achievements with X2X, but because I genuinely believe he was the most skilled player in history after me.

Standard - same as above.  He was even more versatile than FD, and it was scary because back then we never knew what maps/rules/settings we may end up playing on, and you always knew this guy would be playing it like a god who knew it his whole life.  His one weakness (if you could call it that) was he wasn't as fast as people like me, FD, Hunter.

Warlord - yes, classic map maker, but that's not why he's on the list.  He's there because he averaged out to a 92 lol.  And his actual story / narrative backs it up - he's beaten most of the people on the list below him, including X-CON Str0ng (I actually watched them 1v1 - saying it now makes me feel like I'm speaking of some ancient battles and relics, lol), Peabody, Arma, and many of the other peope not on the list but would be in the next ranks down (like LTU vytass, Shazzabog, Matiking, Garnett, Lider, Scorpion).  I don't know if you or T-bag ever 1v1'd him, but I don't imagine that would mean much, as I recall you guys didn't really become top experts until around 2009 or so, after Warlord had left.  His strength was his feel for the game.

You'll notice a trend here.  The average speed of players across all timelines doesn't really change - nor would you expect it to.  There were extremely fast players in all generations.  However, if you look at the S/J/V scores, you'll notice the average judgment (ok?) and versatility scores are slightly lower and lower through the newer generations.  I hope you can appreciate and agree that this trend is certainly an accurate representation of the evolution (or de-evolution) of expert players in SHC.  As I think (?) you know, players like me, Bar, FD, Standard, Warlord, Peabody, Meelman, Masosz, and even some 'middle-aged' experts like T-bag, Keks, Lider (maybe?), Artorius, and you to an extent, all could play pretty much any maps/rules/settings at a consistently high level, on par with our best / preferred settings.  There has been a notable decline in this ability over time, and this not only affects the versatility, but the judgement of the players.  As you mentioned, you were able to throw off many of the top experts of your time by just making unconventional plays.  This wouldn't (or shouldn't) be the case if they were raised in the game the way many of us were raised - in all sorts of different settings, always having to adapt and truly understand and "feel" the game.  I think this is further evidence of the general (not perfect, but general) accuracy of the S/J/V numbers I gave for each player.

With respect to some of the other players you mentioned - Civo seemed to play just like T-bag (I was sure it was just T-bag under Civo's account, no?).  I've only played Civo twice - once in GSA (he was still noob at the time I think), and once in GR.  The time in GR I was pretty sure it was T-bag, as he played exactly like Tbag and was saying smart little comments implying he was T-bag (I know you guys can't help yourself).  If that was really Civo I played against, he could make the list, perhaps (even though I won, he played well).  This is an example of a player I never payed enough attention to or played with enough to know how well rounded he was/is.  As for Lancelot, he seems to have the speed for sure, from his eco record videos (which I need to get around to attempting again one of these days), and is probably faster than at least half of the people on the list, purely judging from those videos.  However, I've never seen him play an actual game?  I just youtube'd it and found a video of Misterio beating Lancelot in a 1v1, but other than that I don't know how to judge his comprehensive gameplay?  With most of the top players that came after I left (shork, Mystical, etc), there are at least youtube videos to go off of, but I can't find any of Lance except that one against Misterio.  I would play with him sure, if I still played.  lol.  You, tbag, and peabody should all play a couple games with him and the other current experts (shork, Mystical, idk who else?), as I know all 3 of you still go on GR occassionally, and would be the only ones left who can assess across the different time periods, or at least back to 2009.

Not sorry for the even longer post.

[-=W.L=- MysticaL |F|]

I think it's ironic how you skipped from your era of SHC to the "Lancelot + Shork + MysticaL" era, there has been a plethora of top experts in the past 8 years that are worth mentioning ahead. Also, you brought up a good point, in the past few years there have been Youtube videos floating around that could give you an approximation about certain players' levels, unlike the old times of SHC (pre 2013).

I'm not gonna take part into this debate about old players' skills since I wasn't there + there is no proof whatsoever that you or any of the aforementioned old players are that good, with all due respect, but I will discuss other details:

1. You mentioned on many occasions - lol- how you could beat experts in 1v2, 1v3 games. That alone is enough proof to any player of the modern shc era to realise how much of an expert all of these players were (again, with all due respect to them). I challenge anyone & everyone, to play a 1v2 game nowadays - any rules - vs 2 mediums (not experts) and win: That would truely be an accomplishment that spans decades of glory.

2. The oldest videos I could find were FrozenWarrior's, Dingo's, Aragorn's, Viktor's, Ares's, Maly's etc... there is no video of old times' 1v2, 1v3 games, no video of HL, Bartholo, Masosz, Warlord or FD or or or... so as far as we're concerned, we have no idea how accurate/pretentious you old players are. It's not about what you say, it's about what you can prove in the court of law, SESSION AJOURNED.

3. Were all of the aforementioned players good ? Sure no doubt, but unless you played vs someone or seen how someone plays, you have no right to rank them. Sure, you could go ahead and rank players of your time, but better keep it like that.

4.

{{DHK}}HolyLord wrote

[...] You'll notice a trend here.  The average speed of players across all timelines doesn't really change - nor would you expect it to. [...]

ehem, what ? Nowadays, players learn to be fast before they learn how to make basic eco lol

5. The idea of having Dingo, Tbag & Peabody assess new experts is just hilarious. They are horribly out of shape, end of conversation. If they lose any game nowadays, they are entitled to a I'm-10-years-inactive excuse. But if they win, they can... who am I kidding, pretend I never said that.

6. Having a best of all times list is ridiculous. I see what kind of show you got running here, a bunch of old players having a hard time to let go of a game they long ago played. Every once in a while, you come across a post on this forum where some old player tries to reinforce the idea that the old were better than the new, and that's just an unrealistic comparison. Apples and oranges, apples and oranges...

You cannot compare, rank, categorize, or classify what you can't see or in this case, whom you cannot play against.

To answer the OP, if you want to satisfy your ego, take care of the list that you got going on and don't look back.

[MAX GALINGUMAS]

What Garnett is mentioned here? If few years ago only, then it’s Geralt

[[>D-F<]~Dingo~]

Calm down, young blood. What top experts from 2014-2019 are you talking about? Our lack of inclusion of names from that period has less to do with our inactivity, than it has to do with our very high standards for what a top expert, "Greatest of all time" player is. I popped in a few times in the last few years, just to see everyone playing the same map, same rules, same settings, every single game. Of course we were unimpressed. But throw out some names and some proof if you want it to be considered.

As for yourself, have you beaten Maly/Geralt/Ares/Shork? Masosz? Lancelot? Go play Lancelot and Shork, in 5 pt, 10 pt, 20 pt, 2x in each settings and then report back. Do no rules, no f, and no f fs if you're inclined, but play different maps and different res levels. I'll play with you sometime. I may not win, but I can get a good idea of what your level is (and maybe I will win, fucker).

Also, I can understand your frustration, with what you believe is bias against newer players, but you must understand that the gameplay and the community would not be what it is today but for many of us older players. Tbag, I, and X-CONS, and others, had a big role in bringing high level no f playing to GR from GSA in GR's early days. People you played with and learned from are people who played and learned from us upstream. Same goes for many of the older players before us as well. But putting that aside, in terms of pure skill, high level comes from competition and training. What I saw in GR at many points was that the community did not have an environment that could really stimulate the production of top experts. That's because in so many periods of SHC in GR, everyone was playing the same exact low res map, no fire no ffs or 50 ha max shit. That pushes people to become good at that map and those rules, but it doesn't create the versatility and wide ranging abilities that a true top expert has.

But with that said, we'd all like to see new top experts be created, and it's perfectly possible that newer players can surpass the older. I'm impressed after leaving for so long to see even a handful of very good players. I think that probably had a lot to do with X-CON's activity/training, as well as some other older players that stuck through playing in the second half of the last decade. How long have you played?  

[[>D-F<]~Dingo~]

Must have been from a few years ago.

[[>D-F<]~T-Bag~]

Dingo and HL you guys summed it up good, you have slight disagreement, but overall you are on the same path as far as for list of top 20 of all time.

Masosz was good and deserves top 20 no doubt.

VYTAS would make my top 20 list for sure.

Maybe Lutel too, he was playing all rules,pt, res, golds, you name it... didn't waste troops in any of those rules, might be considered for top 20.

Lancelot , played few games with him, he's the top from recent times for sure. Got the pure skill, love, and assessment reaction to compete for the list.

@The Notorious one, since you are making
comparison with football, maybe it's hard to rank #1 in football (even tho football experts could come out with that, combining many parameters, even tho it's a team sport with 11 players in field and every of them has his position, and with that different priorities and skill requirement), but in majority top 10 lists you will see same names again and again, so it is possible to rank it in football too, same as in every other sport, there for shc too.

@MysticaL you are right, we missed 7 last years of crusader, you guys didn't, but I don't see any name popup frequently from you guys, meaning no one really stood out. If you consider Feanor, Erec, Vlad and Defs as top, then we are miles away from agreement of what we consider a skill, and what you guys consider a skill.
I'm sure if HL devotes to shc again, he would have no problem in beating you 1v2, same as I wouldn't too.
Of course our excuse is we didn't played for almost a decade. It's a difference between spending 5 hours minimum on game every day for years in your teen age and barely catching time playing any in your late 20s.
Maybe the fact that someone beating someone in 1v2 nowadays would truly be an accomplishment that spans decades of glory proves that there is no one at really Top Expert level nowadays. Even tho I would bet my money on Lancelot could do it.

The problem in recent times is there are a lot of tools, mouse stuff, so that I can't even trust anyone. I played a 2v2 game, and one guy made like 30 shields in 5 seconds. Later I found out there is a thing where you just press a key and shields are made automatically. This is a strategy game, and it seems like over the years it lost demand of skill, and gain demand of speed and better equipment. To make a sport reference again, it's like comparing a tennis player that plays with a racket from 1930s and a player that plays with modern racket, this analogy kinda sucks, but you get what I mean.

Maybe time span really is huge, after all.

@DH could you please help us all, and tell us what do you do for life, how are you earning money, how much money do you earn monthly, what are you doing daily or weekly to keep your mind and body fresh. Give us some guidance, tell us what you do, maybe some of us could try it too, and find the right path.
Not a sarcasm. I'm serious, share it with us, don't just judge.

[[X-CON]~Lord Burek~]

I completely agree with Mystical, each and every word stands, period.
I'm still summarizing my reply when I'm ready I will post it.
The one quote i can tell is: ''There is no Best of all times''.
Cheers!

As an EDIT: I do agree with Dingos first half of the reply ''Sorry in advance for the long post. ''

[The Notorious One]

Don't forget to say a good word about me when you reply.

[[>D-F<]~Dingo~]

After playing for many years, and seeing many different players, from different eras/generations, I can 100% say that there are players that qualify to be the best of all times. Even if the time periods are different, skill, judgment, and versatility apply throughout each period. You can clearly see if someone is playing at a top level, regardless of whether it's 2010, 2015, or 2020. It's just a matter of knowing what top level playing looks like. And part of why we care more about the opinions of other top experts vs medium players, is that top experts can recognize other top experts better than a medium player can. If you're a medium player, if you get owned by an expert, you can't necessarily tell whether they're a 90+ player or an 80+ player. They owned you, and you weren't good enough to truly test their skills, so you can't gauge it. I'm not calling you a medium player, but did you ever play in GSA?

We can agree to disagree on it, but of course skill is skill, and so long as we have people (such as me, tbag, HL, pea, and others), who've played this game for many years, and have a lot of experience, and have personally observed many different players from different periods, we are able to fairly accurately gauge who the top players were, and who wasn't. It isn't a coincidence that tbag, HL, pea, and myself generally agree on the majority of who the top players were. I agree with tbag and HL that masosz was a great player and was very skilled. I was just giving him some shit.

But in the end, the best players list isn't bad. If you have a suggestion for an addition, make your argument, support it, provide the relevant proof, and it'll be considered.

On another note, I am contemplating hosting a GR tournament so that you GR players can showcase your abilities.

[MAX POWER]

  Random thoughts to this topic, not about top players.
  Two days ago I tried to play shc, vs mediums of course cause im no better. Result - same fucking maps as 4 years ago. As i can see players reached the perfection in maps. They have 100s of maps and all of them are useless one-straight-wall maps with rocks on the sides. on top of rules limitations i heard, 40 kn max. The host set 10min Pt, and one noob complained repeatedly - this map is for 5 pt only. Disgusting.

Maybe tops are playing with less limits though. But recent era players get no credit for their skill because of the restrictions on the game. Anyway, I will use an opportunity to promote 40k 0pt no rules (and gamespeed 50 - let the wise old grandpas do what they can do) games. Can be up to three wins or more. The joy of freedom in the game is large (sun).

And also, it would be a lot of fun to host a tournament with all fucked up rules where players would call me noob for every selection i made. But oh well, I have a job  to do, 9-18 each day. Exciting life.

[{>FuRY<} Viktor]

After what I have read and how much biased everyone is about their list which feels like everyone is making their own list especially hL dingo Tbag and some new players it totally compelled me to throw some light on the past few years of SHC, period where HL was inactive but I was playing actively.
No offense dingo/Tbag aka civo(sorry) but I feel like you guys have missed so much and haven’t really played to many of the top experts after you ppl. It would be absurd to neglect those and if you could then YOU shouldn’t be comparing yourself to players like Meelman HL FD Standard. However I agree with your opinion on Bartholo but I won’t blame you as You write same stuff about Tbag and I won’t hesitate to write that Riva or Aragorn would kick many Top experts easy on this list when they were at their best, given YOU have lost to Aragorn all games in row and also Maly lost vs him all games when I was watcher myself and he was one of the best that time after ME as I trained and taught him endless new strategies  and changed his gameplay as well as Rivaz as they were before trained by Savoz and maybe YOU a little but no offense, personally I wasn’t quite impressed with their skills and they lacked so many things and I had to work hard to mine a top expert out of them and their victories spoke for them afterward. Later also I also trained some Russian no fire rules and some of them became Top Expert like MT IVAN. Players like BR Dominich Smallman Miron also learned no fire from me to some extent. I would let maly to take credit for shork but to make a top expert out him was really happened when he started playing with us and for a small time he was FURY SHORK just like DHK Stemple aka Geralt so that explains a lot as well. On and off I was quite dominant in this game than any of you  and only missed  era of SHC from late 2016 to late 2019 but that was for the best as well and I had no other choice as I moved to USA and I had to work hard to fit in the present and that’s where some new players raised like TIGER and MYstical and what TBAG can say about fenor or defs , I can say same about defs shork tiger and many other but I understand and respect that they have learned well too and deserved to be notables in SHC discussions.


I do agree with everyone else on Ares as he kept and ran his clan well but he never was a 1v1 player and I won’t comment on him.

Maly: I’ve played him several times and we both have good scores vs each other, however I feel that he refused to play vs me when I was at my best. Most games I played with him was his rules and maps and I never really cared about those things. Given HOLYLORD tools like Judgment( yes dingo it bothers me as well)  versatility, Speed etc and some other abilities dingo was trying to be show off :P, I would say at my best I gladly played other people chosen settings and No offense when you people write over and over about creative rules it’s not very attractive and in fact it’s an over understood thing to expect from a top.

About Maps talks and K@w Warlord I would say that maps won’t make you any superior but it definitely helps you to understand game better and probably helps you with “VERSATILITY” with that being said I have made several maps which were praised and even in 2020 I made one and shared to Lancelot just for fun 2v2 with inactive players or players like me who are playing through LAPTOP with wrong resolution and poor environment comparing to once they had when they were top as to play SHC one has to have decent environment and good PC as well. I don’t agree with TBAGS joke over having better mouse and stuff like that, however I understand it’s hard to play with a new mouse but it takes only a week or so to fit in.  

Also I read few people are trying to say MALY as the best player of GR era, no offense but that’s quite a joke to me as I and there are many who would say I’m the Best and it’s an honor for them to even be a Knight to Viktor, so please stop posting stuff like that as it’s not true. I Deny it and many other I’m sure.

I do agree with Peabody over splitting up the best players list and Advise to HOLyLORD that not only make up his mind for list over watching videos. No offense if you are impressed with tiger and mystical skills than you have only seen trailer of 2011-2020. There was a time when I intentionally let top experts to build castle and army again after destroying utterly so they can at least learn more as I knew they would ask for another 1v1 and it’s quite boring to play pt time.

This one is for you Guys HL and Peabody.
GODS OF SHC: just because you ppl were once here and GODs existed and now just their messengers:D, it doesn’t work like that bro. As HL himself agrees that FD was the best and oldest and amongst true legend and once was a dream of HolyLord to be like {X2X} FD and {{X2X}} Other explains a lot about theory of GODS of SHC.

I have talked to FD personally and he always claimed that he was better than you and deserve to be #1 and part of me feels like he should be but i have no issues with you placing yourself #1 as well. And I have lots of respect for you and what you have done for SHC.

Coming to what dingo said about Masosz and Blacky I won’t back him as this is slander politics and I feel like something similar happed to XWAR Lord Mert who was a great player with poor internet connection and many times it felt like he was cheating. Also I agree with HL on Masosz that once he was great without TM so let’s  not exclude him just because he played for fun few times with tm or later never cared about this game and I suppose that was a joke dingo.

About HL assessment of no f no fs for GAMERANGER era after 2011,  I can help you that all those who are top experts these days in no f no fs are because of MT Salah and MT Keks, especially Keks as he showed his gameplay on all his videos and new Russian players came forward and were always dominating in no f no fs. MIRON you have missed, he was quite unbeatable at his best, same goes for Dimonich, IVAN etc. personally I never cared about about no f no fs but I have won from these players as well no f no fs rules but that doesn’t make me better than them. I won’t be a prick to say that I always feel like that I’m #1. sorry :P

DINGO
I agree with MAXPOWEr that I really felt like going to DF clan after reading your stories of SHC.

What you said about Civo/Tbag revived and all that fear factor and new styles , trust me I can write more than anyone here. Let’s not go their and as Shork was saying that I played without moat and sometimes no walls, that was surely for fun but at least I was testing how vulnerable I am if I play like that, once again thats messed up but kinda fun for me in a way. I’m sure you would understand as you are smart enough.

DH I won’t say anything about you except that you must share those magical tricks to lead a good life with me.

About ARMA if he Geralt than that explain everything to me HL and Dingo and I’m quite sure he is but I will give them benefit of doubt given they are great respected players.

Last but not the least I agree with mystical that you have missed tons of players. I wonder if a player from NEW world Alliance shows up in 2012 after 9 years and starts making list for tops how will he end up. It’s alright, not a new thing for me.

About Geralt, just because he won many games from dingo and Tbag doesnt makes him better than any of us. I don’t know why he is always on so top, we played 1v1 3 times and he lost all games. 2 no f and 1 no f no fs.

And when it comes to tricks and stuff then I have invented several and one the most amazing which WL tiger showed to others in video of how to play on W@W wood map and make eco when its 0k and settings like 20pt empty map where it’s ridiculously hard to make good pop and eco.

Players I think were good but don’t  qualify for greatest of all time are szeky, saitek, feanor, vlad, Lider, Erec , Ninya, defs

About Geralt I think he is extremely overrated.


Now I really feel like I should play SHC back again seriously sometime.
Peace everyone.


 

[[>D-F<]~Dingo~]

{>FuRY<} Viktor wrote

 It would be absurd to neglect those and if you could then YOU shouldn’t be comparing yourself to players like Meelman HL FD Standard. However I agree with your opinion on Bartholo but I won’t blame you as You write same stuff about Tbag and I won’t hesitate to write that Riva or Aragorn would kick many Top experts easy on this list when they were at their best, given YOU have lost to Aragorn all games in row and also Maly lost vs him all games when I was watcher myself and he was one of the best that time after ME as I trained and taught him endless new strategies  and changed his gameplay as well as Rivaz as they were before trained by Savoz and maybe YOU a little but no offense, personally I wasn’t quite impressed with their skills and they lacked so many things and I had to work hard to mine a top expert out of them and their victories spoke for them afterward.

Aragorn beat me all games? He maybe beat me a couple, but there shouldn't be any question I was better than him. By the time Geralt/Maly/Aragorn were getting any wins from me, it was the point where I was doing what you were talking about - I would play without walls, without shields, without moat, and sometimes I would just sit in my base and wait for my opponent to attack. By the time they were getting wins vs me, I was playing for fun. That wasn't me at my peak. I beat Aragon before where he had less than 15 kills vs me, and I've beaten him in 2v1s before. "given you have lost to Aragorn all games in a row" is a big joke.

What year were you at your best? I vaguely remember playing with you back in 2012, but I don't remember 1v1ing you. I don't know that you saw me or tbag play while we were active.

[{>FuRY<} Viktor]

Don’t get me wrong, I never said that aforementioned players were better than you and you surely had beaten him when he was a beginner but I doubt if you could when he was at his best. All I was saying is that approach to access people skills should be more accurate than what’s been used here.
I think we have played once but never mind. I do agree that you were not playing SHC seriously lately. Btw it’s good to see you around these days.

[Dr.Peabody]

Viktor, I wasn't proposing that we make two separate lists.  There was adequate crossover between both eras, and enough of us played experts from boths eras that we can make a good list inclusive of both.  Also, about FD, I'd say his rating is fair, if not too high.  He was only a little faster than me, slower than HL, and less 'versatile' than both of us.  However legendary he may be doesn't have anything to do with his skill as a player.  Last point, I agree with you that HL is being too nice to these new guys and their videos, probably just to appease them.  I haven't seen anything impressive.

Mystical, I'm guessing you're a new player, and of all the people in this thread, your opinion matters the least in this topic, stop embarassing yourself.  None of these best players from any of the 15 years before you need to prove anything to any new guy.  They proved it to all of us for many years, and that's what this topic is about.  You're welcome to make a list about all the newbies you play with.  I came to GameRanger and played a few games and found most players you all call "experts" now playing at quite a low level compared to what I've seen in the past.  That's enough for me to know.

To reiterate, the only players that really stood out to me were Meelman, Masosz, HL & bar of course, FD, and maybe Dingo.  I didn't play with Standard or Hunter very much.  Warriorwithin, Warlord, Dracula, and str0ng all were very good but didn't feel unmanageable to me.  I missed 2014-2018, but all the youtube shit and streamers from this era didn't impress me.

[{>FuRY<} Viktor]

Peabody, as i have mentioned earlier that FD or HL are indisputably best but i wonder if FD would be making this list and this argument would be carrying more weight if FD would be writing here his speed skills comparison to HL and you. I doubt if He would agree to what you have said about his speed given,he has nothing to do with his skills.

I totally agree about this APPEASEMENT factor going on since forever or perhaps on it's peak nowadays. Also i have mutual feelings about the videos, streaming and not a fan of them nor i feel like watching them. I believe LESSER is benefit and MORE is loss in them.

Pros of (Video/streaming/Youtube) : Yes you would find many new experts in a very short period of time and we have many living examples too, also one would have more players to play with atm.

Cons: This factor has always been excluded by majority (of course not you Peabody) and i personally feel its nothing but a slow poisoning, that totally ruins the game, game play, it's fun and all the creativity. To me it's a disease like cancer that kills all of your INTELLECTUAL, INNOVATIVE AND CREATIVE skills and the reason everyone is finding people playing same stuff over and over. Surely we would be seeing more new INTUITIVE and efficient players with unconventional approach if there were not these videos and then it would be totally JUST to place them among Legends.

Example: For students its kinda same as expecting a SEEN exam but those who pass UNSEEN exams are undoubtedly far more worthy and would it be just to make a comparison between a SELF TRAINED and a COPY CAT ?

In my opinion it would be unwise to compare COPY CATS to many earlier self trained great players.


   

[[>D-F<]~Dingo~]

You're welcome to doubt. He recorded our 1v1 when he was at his best, I think, and he wasn't that good. But feel free to think what you'd like. Also are you using google translate or what? It's pretty hard to understand what you're trying to say. Take a little longer to write and use punctuation pls.

[[X-CON]~Lord Burek~]

After reading carefully few times what you wrote, I myself came to one conclusion which is: there is no such thing as ''Best of all times''.
Just to clarify some things, (This respond is not against anybody or anyone, just sharing my thoughts to this beloved community.)
Maybe some of you know me here, maybe some of you never heard about me, but I have been here since 2010. and was very active untill 2013. 2013. was when I stopped playing (went playing Dota 2, goddamn that game), BUT still when I was inactive, I was still following the community (kinda), and saw few things.

-First of first I do have no enemies in SHC community, I do respect everyone EQUALLY (I don't care if you are noob,medium,expert, or if you are Paki,American,Polish etc...) I play with everyone, and ofcourse if I can help, I try to help. Everyone knows me as a friendly and honest guy (I hope). And i respect everyones opinion.

-Second, I think it is very unfair and lets say ''disrespectful'' to make a list of ''Best of all times'' towards every Past, Present and Future Top experts. Why? Simply because lets take for example Defs. Only some of you mention him, but still he is not as mentioned as he is supposed to be mentioned. Why? Simply because HolyLord or Peabody haven't seen him playing, and in that case he is closed case. Not really sure if you noticed, but the only players you are mentioning are From Mały and below in this case 2012/13 and below. That is the year when HolyLord was playing, to be honest i never heard about PeaBody so i can't say anything (if I saw you, if I played with you), I just heard about you last week when i got linked this forum by Shork.

-Third, still linked to second point, by forcing this thing with ''Only the old players are good'' you are pushing our small community away by not mentioning a lot of players, for example (SmallMan,Dimonich [you only mentioned him because of videos],Aragorn[that guy was a beast], Viktor does not get enough attention, Inostracevia, Dan Zero, Mystical [only mentioned because of videos], Venik, Zeiker, Feanor [saying he's not that good is a shame], Szeky[was a beast], Lord Saitek[very very good in all rules],The Legenday leader Ares, Shork the beast, and the list can go and go on... and at last Lord Burek[me]) where is our part in all this ''Best of all times''? We were all feared and we all had out peaks but still no mentioning as one's of the best. We were all top experts once. Simply because HolyLord and some of you guys here played in GSA time decided only GSA players should be involved in all this and thats it.

-Fourth, forcing Bartholo on first place all the time is a bit strange. Whenever I asked people back in my starting days, there was absolutely nothing stunning about him (I heard many things which mentioned him mostly cheating, and that is basically all). Where is any proof how did that guy play, react or how fast was he? (Please don't start with the: I saw him and I can tell you he's the best etc...), because I can say the same for the one of my great friends on GR --> Medamri, (yea he owned everyone back then, he owned Maly, Defs and Shork 1v3 and he was unbeatable, and Grzechu my friend here can keep confirming all this bullshit, in this case like PeaBody your's...) seriously, STOP!

-Fifth, HolyLord. Due to all respect, all I can hear about you is that you are unbeatable and God of SHC. Don't get me wrong but where is all that proof? I remember when you had the Golden ACC on gameranger you played with noone because ......?(scared,drunk,drugged,bored of playing?) Whenever you were asked to play, you never played. There is a single video i found on youtube, back in 2012 i think it was when i was X2X still, on Ares' channel there was an upload of you and HackeTT. If that is the speed,judgment and versability you are describing on you'r shiny list, than i think there is seriously something wrong here. One very close person (not gonna mention him obviously) to you revealed me that unbeatable HolyLord, and that is nothing else, but that you were good only in 20PT, and that was the only PT you played.
''{{DHK}}HolyLord wrote
[...] You'll notice a trend here.  The average speed of players across all timelines doesn't really change - nor would you expect it to. [...]'' This peaked my eye a lot, because a lot of OLD players told me that back in GSA era the players were slower than players on GR in 2012-2013! And I myself can confirm that players now in 2020 are even faster than players in 2012-2013. Gameplay changes, funny ecos are made, sneaking became extremely popular etc. and that affects the whole gameplay which includes speed,judgment and versability.

-Sixth, PeaBody? Never heard of you, never saw you, nor anyone ever mentioned you. Maybe you are/were playing under aka in my time, who knows... Due to all respect, I have one question towards you, which is: aren't you a bit ashamed telling Mystical that his opinion matters the least in this topic? He's one of the best players nowdays, ofcourse his opinion matters here aswell, what the hell are you talking about?
He has the right to say whatever he likes, whether you like it, or not. As I talked with some of the members in SHC community, they/we noticed that you are nothing but a puppet of HolyLord, which is OK since he is the GOD of SHC ^^.  I have nothing to say about you anymore. Period.

-Seventh, the Almighty Dingo. I'm a bit surprised by you'r approach in all this. Maybe you think I was medium, maybe you don't think thats you'r opinion and i respect it. Tell me one player from my ERA who could beat me and i couldn't beat him? Sure you can see few videos on youtube versus me, but those were all TOP Experts, but ask yourself how many times did i beat them?

-Eighth, Mystical said: ''Having a best of all times list is ridiculous. I see what kind of show you got running here, a bunch of old players having a hard time to let go of a game they long ago played. Every once in a while, you come across a post on this forum where some old player tries to reinforce the idea that the old were better than the new, and that's just an unrealistic comparison. Apples and oranges, apples and oranges...''. I think this explains enough,perhaps more than enough what is going on here... That is what actually I wanted to write but he posted it before so, I'm just gonna copy it here... There is actually one quote which fits here perfectly: ''You are the FEW, we are the MANY''. What do I want to say? I want to say that this topic makes no sense, because of 3 peoples opinion and naiveness. You guys can see videos on youtube, and that is all nice and good, but ask yourself if there is a other side of this all, because uploading wins only does not make you THE BEST. Period.

-Ninth, The Notorious One: ''Don't forget to say a good word about me when you reply.''. You dude are amazing :P

-Tenth, As i will close this all with tenth point, I would like to ask you all... Isn't it better to make a list of every single player (we remember) that played and make a nice website and write a couple of sentences about them (by our best knowledge)? This may sound foolish but I think we all SHC Players are ''Best of all times''. Everyone had different style and gameplay. As you can all see in your debates, Maly owned Dingo, but Dingo owned Maly aswell and it goes in circle like that all the time. Mainly my main focus on all this was to appreciate and respect all players that came and went, and that we should really honour each and every person that passed our beloved community.

Thank you very much for reading, and once again I have no intentions to insult, criticise or make enemies in here.

Side note:(PeaBody sorry, I had no other word but puppet which i used.)
There is many more i could write but, it would take forever.

Have a nice day everyone!
[X-CON]~Lord†Burek~