TM, turbo mouse

[*KoRT*~Gawain †]

Hello, I just wanna ask you, TM IS allowed now?

[-=W.L=- MysticaL |F|]

TM was being used since the dawn of times, but it was only being labelled a cheat when someone gets caught using it clearly (+10cps). For many years (at least from 2016) this was the case; people would use TM, tolerate the use of TM, and look the other way when it comes to TM for 2 main reasons:

1. It's impossible to prove that a =<10cps user e.g is in fact, a TM user.
2. The people that usually make the TM accusations are most of the time, TM users as well. So eventually they just stop throwing accusations and they move on. Some of the players that don't use TM but complain when others used it, have also learned to use TM as well and just lead a happy SHC life.

As for whether it's allowed nowadays or no, I personally find no sense in "not allowing TM" for the reasons mentioned above. And with the gold records' craze (which depends on using a high speed TM) that has been going on lately, a lot of players - myself included - had to use a high speed TM to participate in this race. But I still believe that +10 cps is not natural and cannot be sustained constantly throughout an entire game of SHC. So I believe that a "10cps max" rule would make more sense: it's not slow, and it's not super fast, does not cause gold glitching when removing buildings and most importantly - it would finally stop the hypocrisy where most of the players of this community pretend that they are not TM users.

[[>D-F<]~Dingo]

Hi all, just randomly checked in and saw that you guys started an interesting convo this morning.

TM was always a cheat, but people have always tried to justify it one way or another, such as how Mystical justifies using it.  People make the excuse that it isn't a cheat because everybody does it.  That's not accurate.  *Many* people might cheat, but that doesn't mean that all players cheat.  

Would it level the playing field if everyone used TM?  Maybe.  But you're watering down the gameplay of an already great game.  Does clicking all the time suck?  Yeah, it does.  But it's a sucky thing that everyone should have to endure.  

I of course don't play anymore, but these are the same discussions/arguments people've always had.  At the end of the day, it's a cheat, but people will always make excuses to rationalize their cheating.  

[{{DHK}}HolyLord]

TM is always cheating, and should never be allowed.   Clicking is a very important skill in SHC, just as much as any other skill, and each player is responsible for developing this skill on their own, not relying on an outside program (or equipment) to do it for them.  Bartholo and I used to spend an hour every day just practicing clicking.  It was pretty upsetting when we learned in 2006 that some polish players were using a program called "c5c" that made all of our work and practice on clicking much less meaningful. Just like any cheating program, it replaces a real skill and diminishes the achievement of practice & development.  Where we previously had a strong skill advantage in clicking, people instead started being able to click faster than us, in addition to people who now thought we were using these programs too due to our click speeds.

Exceeding 10cps throughout an entire game is actually very doable for some players, especially if you spend the time and effort to master the proper technique.  I know at least 4 players that were able to hit 15+ cps for sustained periods.  Limiting cps would be a pretty silly and quite unfair rule to these players.  Even if it solves the problem of cheaters, it removes a real and fair advantage from players that are truly more capable and skilled in this area.

Of course, you guys are free to use or not use TM, and make your own opinion on whether it's cheating, but to me, and throughout the history of SHC, it's been unquestionably a cheat to the general community, and any players that use it have been considered cheaters.

Taking this approach doesn't practically solve any problems, but it's the most honest way to look at it.

[=G$F=DeXT3R #real]

For once HL actually agree with tm is deffo a cheat. I could click fast so if you can click faster than me with a program you give yourself a massive advantage.
Can honestly say during my 2003-2007/8 career never used it.
I'll try and get my laptop out and if o can work it out up load DS gettin caught using it by x2x viper with commentary everyone involved was such a fucking loser, glad I think I saved it.

[{{DHK}}HolyLord]

Dude if you got a video of DS that alone is some legendary shit.  Do you remember DS's name?  I know he was some Jewish kid about your age.  Would be hilarious to find him and see where he took his life.  Will never forget him spamming porn and shit in the lobby.  Also I founded HELL clan with him in '05 - good story there, one day when we sit around the fire and chat, remind me to tell the story.

If you're in the UK, you and your girl should grab lunch or coffee (or tea, I guess is what you guys do) with my wife and I next time we visit the Isles.  Don't worry, I don't bite.

[-=W.L=- MysticaL |F|]

TM and shield making require technique to master properly, and that makes both very advantageous techniques that most players aspired for throughout the years. TM is hard to detect as anyone can claim at anytime that they master the technique of clicking, but shield making is easier to detect and expose hence there are rarely SM users nowadays. But in the past 5-7 years at least, more and more players were using TM at least. And since there is no way to prove 100% that a certain player uses TM, it just kept getting worse and worse.
If you play SHC nowadays online, you have 2 options basically:

1. Quit the game because 95% of players use TM
2. Regulate the use of TM / Use TM as well so as to be able to compete

TM was and will always be a cheat. But when facing a situation where you either accept the fact that people will use TM and deny it while you complain all the time, or do something about it - I would choose to do something about it every single time.
TM in competitive SHC nowadays is like steroids in the IFBB : you have to use it if you wanna compete. Sure you can take your chances and play without it (did it for a long time), but then you can only blame yourself when your opponent clicks hard with TM in your army and wrecks it, while you can't run away.

P.S: There was a recurring joke in every tournament over the past 5 years at least where the rules always state: "NO TM"
still cracks me up everytime.

[*KoRT* Lancelot †FK†]

From my point of view, clicking would definitely be a very important skill in SHC if TM did not exist at all but since it does, there really is no point putting effort and clicking by yourself even if you are capable of pulling off 15+ CPS because of the fact that anyone can open a program and match your speed meanwhile you click on your own which is quite demotivating and silly.

Moreover, saying that 10 CPS doesn't cause the gold glitch is wrong. Actually 8-9 CPS or even average clicking speed of human from 10-12 CPS may cause it, but the amount of gold received won't be as high as with a higher clicking speed of course. In that sense, players who are able to click fast are forced to slow it down just to not cause the gold glitch when deleting and yet the glitch happens anyway but with far less gold in return.

Personally, I haven't experienced getting any glitched gold in single-player yet, even when using TM of 15+ CPS. Most likely, it would be the fairest way to have a contest trying to score gold records offline without an use of TM while preferrably recording your hand and in game sounds for others to see and hear, but I doubt if anyone is willing to do that since we live in a non-active community and most of the players who would like to do so are long gone. Nevertheless, people would still accuse you of setting up macros on mouse or some shit because they will always find something to complain about.

[feanor]

Lance where are you?

[{>FuRY<} Viktor]

Turbo mouse has always been a contentious issue and we all have accused each other of it. Also we know that people won’t stop using it unless angles descend down to play SHC among us. It’s time to move on and accept the fact that everyone is using turbo mouse. I know that’s villainous, especially for people like HL :P or 4 others he remember, but in a longer run they might understand how much time it will save them.

Clicking fast is dumb and tedious. SHC is supposed to be a strategy game but unfortunately it has turned into a mess. One should always assume your opponent will use TM and other cheats if possible, especially when there is a lot of bashing awaits you in the lobby/elsewhere if u lose. In my experience of 2 decades players haven’t refrained  from TM, in fact it has became worse.  

You might proceed with notorious SHC with TM or have faith in fabled SHC with no cheat and continue asking foolish questions. GL


 

[[>D-F<]~T-Bag~]

TM is cheat, I never understood where is fun in winning by cheat.
I would rather lose 1000 times in a row without cheating than win with cheating.